Posts by moggy lover

25

If YOU Were One Of The 24 Elders, What Would You Tell The Anointed???

by minimus in

jw
friends

now this could be fun.

moggy lover

You that bit you guys wrote about hell being a place with no burning fires?

Well...... Just make sure you bring plenty of water .....when you get down here

Cheers

21

Do the FDS use Spiritism to contact the '24 Elders' and the 144000?

by Gill in

the watchtower has always, in its publications, talks etc warned against contact with spirit creatures!.

jws are notoriously terrified of anything that might even remotely be to do with spiritism.. however, i find it totally bizarre that they can accept 'spirit guidance from the 24 elders' as an explanation to how the holy spirit guides the fds!.

i would, in simple terms call this a form of spiritism.

moggy lover

<Ahem>... erm... OK ...OK I'll 'fess. Yeah I know how its done.

You heard that the FDS are god's "channel"?

And you heard about "channelling"? right?

All these guys need to do is go into this whirly kinda trance and voila! You channel up an "elder/demon"

Stick that in yer pipe Ted

Cheers

27

Has the Watchtower changed its mind or did I miss something?

by Gill in

in all my years as a jw, my understanding had been of wtbts belief, was that the 144 000 were resurrected in a 'twinkling of an eye' and never actually experienced death.. did i understand wrongly or has the watchtower changed its mind......again?.

january 1st watchtower, page 27 .

when does the first resurrection occur?

moggy lover

Another question: Is it true that Freddy Franz had this special room at Bethel HQ where he repaired for daily "prayer"? I seem to remember someone telling me, years ago, that there was this area of Bethel that was inaccesable to everyone else except FF. Evidently he would spend hours therin communing with goodness knows who. The rumour mill had it that Knorr only spoke to Franz and Franz spoke only to god!!

Maybe that is where and how the elders communed with Freddy. Maybe that roon had special wave-length facilities piped directly into "heaven"

Cheers

72

Astonishing Publisher Peak in Britain for August 2006

by slimboyfat in

well i just got the new kingdom ministry for december and it has the publisher peak for august: 129,482!.

that is quite an amazing total when you compare it to the trend of recent years:.

2006 - 129,482. i wish i could produce a graph, but you get the picture - there has been a dramatic increase in the publisher peak number this year compared with the recent downward trend after the 1995 "generation" change and subsequent stagnation.

moggy lover

By the way: Has anyone got the Jan 1 Wt for 2007?

The first issue of each year publishes a census report of WT followers worldwide. This should give us a more rounded figure.

Cheers

19

Life Everlasting--in Freedom Of The Sons Of God--PDF!

by Atlantis in

this old book is a little weather-beaten but may still serve for some information purposes.

many researchers wanted this book for the "charts" as well as other important quotes, that could be used in helping jehovah's witnesses to become free from the watchtower.

by the mid-1960s the society had apparently forgotten much of what it had learned about the hazards of setting dates.

moggy lover

Thank you once again for the trouble you take in providing gems such as this book for us.

Sure I remember the 1966 Dist Assy at which tis book was released. The chart at the back listing the coutdown to 1975 was itself worth the wait in the long queue. I remember going home with a crowd of other brothers and sisters chattering away excitedly about our prospects of going into the "new system" in our lifetimes. We even got to the stage of saying in passing a particularly beautiful house, "OOOH, I bags that home!!"

Now, like a broken doll or a shattered dream it all seems so empty, and rotten to the core. In my disgust at the WTS, this was one of the first publications I destroyed. I much regretted my rashness, because I have never been able to replace it.

Till now.

Thanks once again, and keep turning on the light

Cheers

36

"The Calendar of Jehovah God"

by cabasilas in

1935 saw the brief attempt by jehovah's witnesses to adopt a new calendar freed from any connection to other religions or with names derived from paganism.

the 1935 yearbook published without much explanation a chart showing "jehovah's year of ransom 1903.

" the yearbook said: "a series of articles in explanation will appear in the golden age.

moggy lover

Thanks for revealing this well concealed piece of WT nonsense. Like fokyc, I too was in the borg since the mid 50s and was not made aware of this.

Cheers

41

"This Generation"

by Jeffro in

i know the witnesses changed their 'generation' definition in 1995 to get away from being tied down to the literal generation of people who saw 1914.. but applying their definition of the word to matthew 24:34 makes the verse meaningless, regardless of whether the original text grammatically allows for their interpretation.

there is no point in saying "this generation will by no means pass away" if 'generation' merely refers to an attitude of people which may remain the same for any ongoing period of time.. there is simply no point in saying it unless it was intended to refer specifically to a literal generation of people who were alive at the time.

of course, there is no validity to their 1914 doctrine anyway, but nevertheless, they are inextricably stuck with it..

moggy lover

The Nov 1995 Watchtower, detailing the latest interpretation of Matt 24:34 to come out of the WTS thought control headquaters in Bethel, NY must surely be one of the seminal issues they have published in all the years of their otherwise sordid history.

Like most charlatans, they applied theological legerdemain and intellectual sleight-of-hand to craft a scenario that diverted attention from their own previous failings and created a position that now seems unassailable.Conjuring, rather than revealing the meaning behind what may have been a solid biblical revelation, they ended up with tickling the ears of their R&F.

The 1995 interpretation of Matt 24:34 is the latest culmination of a process that has undergone several mutations over the years of WTS existence. We will have the grace not to mention the utterly absurd prophetic utterances of Russell and Rutherford, utterances which were evidently made with divine sanction, because these have long since been embarrasingly discarded by their less than loyal sucessors. But suffice it to say that in recent years these changes have been well documented by observers of the WTS. Ray Franz, in his book "In Search of Christian Freedom" pgs 477-480] details these:

1 Oct 8, 68 Awake: [pgs 13, 14] The comment was made that Jesus was "obviously" referring to those at least 15 years and over.

2 Oct 1, 78 WT: [pg 31] What was "obvious" in 68, evidently became less than "obvious" ten years later.It now appeared, again under the sanction of a mutable god, that those "Old enough to observe" those things were being the ones being referred to. At the same time, they emphatically ruled out those born on that date of 1914, because this was thought to be a logical conclusion.

3 Oct 15, 80 WT: [pg 31] Two years later, evidently under pressure to reveal what "Old enough to observe" meant, they suggested an age of at least 10 years.

4 May 15 84 WT [pgs 4-7] Six years later from the statement made in 78, what appeared "logical" then mysteriously transmuted into "illogical" and those who were in fact born in 1914 became acceptable.

Now, with nimble ambiguity, and misplaced rhetoric, they have settled on an "explanation" that satisfies neither scriptural nor personal concerns. Arrogantly insensitive to those who have tirelessly given their devotion to the WT leadership, and who now have suffered disappointment, this latest clarification of a troublesome issue has put to rest any further need for discussion.

I feel that it is necessary to know that the evolution of WTS theology comes not as result of concern for biblical fidelity, but rather for gaining the best practical benefit to the WT leadership. WT theology coexists comfortably with their financial greed, and adjustments such as this satisfies this gratification, not biblical revelation. That such tactics violate even the most basic grounds of disciplined Bible exposition, is something that is of no concern to the WTS leadership. What is important is that they must be seen to be operating under divine fiat.

How long the WTS can continue with this charade depends on their ability to obfuscate this matter sucessfully. The usual method employed is to create other certainties that can absorb the attention of the R&F. The displacement of the latest tract seems to be one such means.

Cheers

39

Do you remember giving talks?

by klydia in

jw
friends

i'm trying to remember the process for giving a talk.

i remember getting a slip with a topic on it, but what else was on that slip?

did it tell you what scriptures you should cite, or what book the talk was based on?

moggy lover

Ugh!! Yep I remember it well. The last talk, [no 5? 6?, whatever]was usually from the "Aid" book [mid 70s] and the Minnistry school instructor was particuklarly hard on those brothers who gave this talk. Anything less than perfection was regarded as a fair target for criticism, despite the fact that the instruxtor was himself an inadequate speaker. It appears that his best "perk" was that he could publically council speakers from the platform.

Eventually, I rotated into the position of instructor. I found that there were those who enjoyed giving talks, and there were those that absolutely loathed it. There were the "naturals" and there were the "strugglers". So some indeed benefitted from council, but others required encouraging, not council. Sadly there was no such set up available.

To be frank, I did'nt like giving council from the platform, although I had to do it I felt it to be too intrusive. Oddly enough, though, sometime in the middle of my term, as a result of a change announced at a District Assy they removed this [wisely, I think] and council was to be administered in private, after the meeting. The problem was however trying to catch the speakers afterwards, since most darted out immediately after the closing song. For which I did'nt blame them, since with two meetings, it was always pretty late, especially in winter.

All-in-all, though, I felt that the Misistry School [do they still call it that or what?] was an excellent idea, and with a few humane adjustments could be made better. Pressure to give talks I think, should be eased. Some people are just not the speaker type. Maybe their gifts lie in other areas, like music. Why not get those who were good at this to sing, Kingdom Songs [of course. No Britney Spears thank you] rather than speak. And the ridiculous subterfuge behind the sisters giving talks to other sisters was, I though being silly. Since the target audience is the whole congregation anyway, not just the other sister, I saw no difference in having the sisters talking directly to the target audience. Again, oddly enough, many of the Elder's wives made better gifted speakers than their hubbies.

Cheers

50

JW's and John 5:23

by UnDisfellowshipped in

has anyone on this board ever used john 5:23 when talking to jw's?.

unfortunately, one of my friends is currently in a "bible" study with the jw's (and has been since last year).

i asked my friend to ask the jw what john 5:23 means, so my friend did ask the jw who was conducting the "bible" study.

moggy lover

Just a brief remark: I did a search in the WT CD Rom 04 and came up with nothing. There is a quote from Jo 5:22 then it skips to Jo 5:24

Dont hold your breath waiting for some earth-shattering information. I seem to remember being taught, as far back as the 60s, to say that as a representative of Jujuber Jesus was deserving of "respect" [I don't remember the WT actually admitting to the fact that Christ was worthy of "honour"] while He was here on earth. To the best of my recollection they do not apply this verse to Christ today. Naturally they can't when they openly boast [In the Revelation book] that even in their songs which they use in their "worship", the songs are weighted fully in favour of Juu etc to the detriment of the Son. Russell's song book was more objective, with as many applying to the Son as the Father.

Evidently to the WTS, Jesus' words at Jo 5:23 apply to the Jews who, by nailing Jesus to the wooden thingee, failed to give Him the respect He deserved. But my information may be out of date.

Cheers

12

New World or New System of Things

by *jeremiah* in

hi everyone, i'm seeking clarification again.

when i was in the borg, the phrase the wt used to call paradise was "the new system of things".

i've read a lot of posts on here and i've seen a lot of "new world" and i never see "the new system of things" phrase.

moggy lover

I can see at least two reasons behind this subtlety of expression.

1 It gives the R&F membership a veneer of scholastic integrity. Upto 1950, when the first edition of the NWT of the "Christian Greek Scriptures" was published, the general expression was the "New World" when referring to the post-A structure of society. Then Freddy Franz the "oracle" of God discovered an anomaly.

There are two Greek words used in the NT to discuss a concept such as this: "Kosmos" which he decided to "translate" as "world", and "Aion" which he tabbed with the expression "system of things" Now he found that when references to the Post-A time were made in the NT, the word used was "aion" not "kosmos" [check out Lu 18:30 etc] So Voila! Out went the expression "New World" and say hellow to "New System"

The ironic bit was that Franz discovered this anomaly too late. The New "World" Translation had already been published. So there we were like a bunch of gits, prattling on about the "New System" while at the same time flogging the New "World" Translation at the doors.

2 It keeps the faithful on their toes. Blues Brother will bear me out in this, but back in the 60s and 70s you had to keep on your toes to show that you were up with the latest '' truths'' and this meant remembering all the subtle shifts in verbal nuances. If some unfortunate specimen, in a lapse of judgment at an otherwise boring WT study, mentioned the word "world" when he should have said "system" you can bet your boots that he would be stared at like he was a skunk at a family picnic. And that would be the only bit that was remembered at the study. Such peer tactics ensured he never repeated such a clanger.

BTW, I remember about the late 70s the WTS making quite a hullabaloo over the word "Armageddon" insisting on printing it as "Har-Mageddon" This caught the more zealous ones off guard. Could'nt tell if it was a one-off thing or a new "Shift" in vocabulary.

With many of their best writers either pushed out or voluntarily leaving, and with a dearth of deep theological thinkers left behind, this verbal rectitude seems to have blurred, and guards, both theological and linguistic, have dropped.

In other word, no body gives a stuff.

Cheers